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I don't see anything wrong with that and I don't think it is disrespectful to women.

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If you take the OT Bible 100% literally, you would be going to church on Saturday (the Sabbath of the 10 Commandments), sacrificing goats, stoning people for doing yard work on Saturday, living in a tent, driving a camel or donkey, and be a bronze-age nomad roaming the desert.

Manape,

Did you have this in mind?

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After they were married she became a Christian. Now she struggles to fit her husband into the leadership role. Now HE makes decisions about the business SHE started.

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I myself don't have any problem with Atheists (or anyone) declining to define how the universe started or explaining how we know right from wrong.

The scariest people in the world are the ones who think they know all the answers and refuse to let any new thoughts in. The second scariest people are those who won't ask questions.

Would you criticize a scientist who is working on a problem for not giving you answers to things they haven't found out yet?

If someone says they can't know how the universe started, or doesn't think any God was responsible, why does that mean they are obligated to provide an alternate explanation? Since scientists themselves are still studying the origins of the universe, wouldn't it be mighty presumptuous for a non-scientist to even attempt to offer an explanation?

Actually, the last thing I read about universe origins seemed to suggest the possibility of multiple universes that existed prior to our current universe - like a continuous chain. But don't quote me on this - I can't remember exactly.

As far as morals go, I don't see why we need Christianity in order to have morals. The moral sense of mankind have generally become more refined throughout time. Our sense of justice is actually higher than an ancient person's sense of justice.

I think I once posted a story in the Health Section here about how human babies react to seeing adults do bad or unfair things. It seems we are hardwired with a sense of justice at birth.

The idea of eternal torture for having the wrong belief is a strange sense of justice. Now only is it punishment for what is essentially a "thought crime", but it's infinite punishment for a finite crime.

Nowadays, that would be considered cruel and unusual punishment.

But then a lot of stories in the bible involve a sense of justice that we would consider cruel and unusual today. That is evidence that humans have progressed some.

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Wildflower, I'm sorry about your daddy...you sound like you rose above it.

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Edited by - Wildflower on 03/07/2010 11:41:23 PM

The Virtuous Wife
10 Who[b] can find a virtuous[c] wife?
For her worth is far above rubies.
11 The heart of her husband safely trusts her;
So he will have no lack of gain.
12 She does him good and not evil
All the days of her life.
13 She seeks wool and flax,
And willingly works with her hands.
14 She is like the merchant ships,
She brings her food from afar.
15 She also rises while it is yet night,
And provides food for her household,
And a portion for her maidservants.
16 She considers a field and buys it;
From her profits she plants a vineyard.
17 She girds herself with strength,
And strengthens her arms.
18 She perceives that her merchandise is good,
And her lamp does not go out by night.
19 She stretches out her hands to the distaff,
And her hand holds the spindle.
20 She extends her hand to the poor,
Yes, she reaches out her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of snow for her household,
For all her household is clothed with scarlet.
22 She makes tapestry for herself;
Her clothing is fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates,
When he sits among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
And supplies sashes for the merchants.
25 Strength and honor are her clothing;
She shall rejoice in time to come.
26 She opens her mouth with wisdom,
And on her tongue is the law of kindness.
27 She watches over the ways of her household,
And does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children rise up and call her blessed;
Her husband also, and he praises her:
29 “ Many daughters have done well,
But you excel them all.”
30 Charm is deceitful and beauty is passing,
But a woman who fears the LORD, she shall be praised.
31 Give her of the fruit of her hands,
And let her own works praise her in the gates.

This seems to imply that she is making business decisions and running the household, and her husband trusts her to make these decisions (v. 11). Verse 16 talks about her considering a field and buying it, but doesn't say that she had to have her husband's permission. I would think that she and her husband did discuss it though. Verse 28 says that her husband praises her, so I guess he is happy with the way the business and household are run. I think the key verses are 11 and 12 where it says that her husband trusts her and that she does him good and not evil all her life.

I don't know everything and never will, but I do love and trust God. As far as parental failure goes, I see way too many people using that as an excuse to not try to do what is right or to not be successful. I know there are some things that bother us about our past, but very few of us had problems so severe that we were scarred for life. We just have to choose every day to overcome our past and make decisions that will help us and not hurt us, and try each day to make progress toward our goals in life. Forgive the people who have hurt you, forget about the hurt as much as possible, and go on with your life. None of us can go back and change the past, we just have to make the best of our future, and we do that by making good decisions even in areas that don't really seem to be significant. We have to be responsible for our choices and the consequences of those choices.

Wildflower, just to clarify that last paragraph, I was talking to everyone, not just to you. Actually, I was probably talking to myself more than anybody else. LOL

I am familiar with the passage. I came from a family that went to church at least three times a week and twice on Sundays.

The married woman I mentioned has turned over "final decisions" to her husband. They discuss all decisions, but now he makes the final choice. Maybe their church mandates this. The couple is very fundamentalist.

I'm glad that last paragraph wasn't meant for me. During our childhood, a school counselor told my mother that my brother was having a lot of problems because of my father. It was decided that the counseler would not speak with him because he would only discount the opinion of a woman. My sister did therapy in her twenties and most of it was to counteract the lasting effects of my father.

My father's influence was not limited to the time when he was raising us. He has continued to be a source of stress because he has never changed. He's 73, so I'm not holding my breath that he will get better. It's never really in the past because it's part of our present.

Churches vary a lot in their teachings on marriage. My issue is that a literal view of the bible provides too much leeway for abusive husbands IF they are in a congregation that leans heavily on the authority of the husband.

Like this: http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/124174/?page=entire

BTW, my parents are divorced and both are remarried. My mother's second husband is the polar opposite of my father.

My father's second wife endures many of the same problems as my mother did, and walks around on eggshells with him. He is a gift that keeps on giving. ;-)

Of course any church that teaches that is wrong, but there is more of that stuff going on than most of us know.

My father is on my mind more than usual because I had to banish him from my life recently due to his unrelenting antics.

We are supposed to honor our parents, but I don't think we owe them the opportunity to impact our health and immune system by constant agitation, stress, and downright meaness.

Maybe he needs to read these verses in the Bible:

Ephesians 6:4
And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Colossians 3:21
Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.

WRJ, I'm glad you have respect for all, even North Georgia hillbillys and hypocrites. :>}

However, I've seen more hypocrite in the flat lands than in the hills. I'm thinking of a minister of a fundamentalist Baptist church in Atlanta who was at last report in prison and other church flakes I have known outside our mountain community. Perhaps, I just understand mountain folks better, but I don't believe we have a monopoly on hypocrisy.

For those of us who attend our little holy huddles we call church, we seem to put on our happy faces on Sunday morning, as if nothing is wrong. To me this forum is real church where real people are given a voice. Perhaps, this is where real change begins with small groups where people are not afraid to talk about how they really feel.

Peace to all. Gotta head for the bed and hit the floor at 5:30 in the morning. Perhaps, I'll sleep late on Sabbath.

The Bible does talk about earthquakes, but I don't think it says if God causes them, or if He allows Satan to cause them like He allowed Satan to persecute Job, or why they happen. This passage from Luke chapter 21 talks about earthquakes. There are similar passages in Matthew and Mark if anyone cares to read them:

5Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6"As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down."

7"Teacher," they asked, "when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?"

8He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not follow them. 9When you hear of wars and revolutions, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away."

10Then he said to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

12"But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you. They will deliver you to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13This will result in your being witnesses to them. 14But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17All men will hate you because of me. 18But not a hair of your head will perish. 19By standing firm you will gain life.

20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

25"There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

29He told them this parable: "Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

32"I tell you the truth, this generation[b](or race) will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

34"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. 35For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

Ha! I almost typed in the verse from Ephesians! Yes, I've had to resort to "tough love". I told him specifically that I could no longer see him as long as he does XYZ and he chose to keep doing XYZ. Then he complains when I don't respond.

Manape,

Hypocrites are everywhere of course, but I see more of it here if you count racism and hatred of anyone who is "different" as being a hypocrite. I just find it to be more open here with no attempt at disguise. They feel they are a Christian, but I don't know what they do with all the verses about Christian love. Maybe they cross them out with a magic marker?

I don't know. I guess there are all kinds of ways of being a hypocrite and maybe hatred is just more obvious.

Jenkins,

Anyone would be happy about good weather and flowers, but I do agree 100% with your post this time. It's a real conundrum.

The more liberal Christian denominations that don't require biblical inerrancy don't tend to think that way. But the immense cognitive dissonance of fundamentalist Christianity just makes me shake my head.

Pat Roberts said Haiti had the earthquake coming to them because they made a "pact with the devil" when they threw off France. Yet most of the people in Haiti weren't even alive back then and most are Christians.

This link has a video of Robertson's comments, a video of the response by their Ambassador, and a video of how a different kind of Christian responds to the disaster: http://exploretruth.com/life/haiti-had-it-coming-pat-robertson/

Listen, I know a Christian in Florida who surveyed the damage after a major hurricane and saw that some houses were devastated and some were untouched. They said ... "You could really tell who was praying and who wasn't."

Of course, the quality of construction and the erratic behavior of the hurricane itself could not possibly be the reason for the differences! Did they go door-to-door to find out who was praying and who wasn't?

I know a few Christian families whose houses were devastated in a previous hurricane (Andrew). I'm sure they wouldn't have appreciated the remark either.

Cognitive Dissonance at it's finest.

Meg, the NT did not do away with the law of the OT. It only summed it up in a single command. But I'm not here to bite and devour other Christians. But I love to argue...so, may agree to disagree:

Meg said...

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Manape, I believe the Bible is 100% true and accurate. That doesn't mean that we are bound by Old Testament laws now. When Jesus came and died for our sins we were freed from those laws and rituals. We are no longer under the law but under grace, and we are forgiven of our sins without the animal sacrifices and such. But, without the Old Testament it would be harder to understand the New Testament. The OT is the history of the foundation of our existence. It tells us who God is. There is a lot of foretelling of the coming of Jesus Christ in the OT as well.

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I rarely get a "day of rest," but I go to church on Sundays. It would be nice to have a day to rest but it seems there is always too much work to do. Even Jesus was criticized for working on the Sabbath, and He told His accusers that the Sabbath was made for people, not people made for the Sabbath, or something like that.

I am sure that God could make plants and have them survive for a few days without sunlight. The sun and the stars are not the only sources of light. It is entirely possible to have light before the sun and stars are made. Just because "science" says things happened in a certain order or that the universe is a certain age doesn't mean it is actually true. This is what God told Job when he was questioning Him:

Job 38
The Lord Challenges Job
1 Then the Lord answered Job from the whirlwind:

2 “Who is this that questions my wisdom
with such ignorant words?
3 Brace yourself like a man,
because I have some questions for you,
and you must answer them.

4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell me, if you know so much.
5 Who determined its dimensions
and stretched out the surveying line?
6 What supports its foundations,
and who laid its cornerstone
7 as the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

8 “Who kept the sea inside its boundaries
as it burst from the womb,
9 and as I clothed it with clouds
and wrapped it in thick darkness?
10 For I locked it behind barred gates,
limiting its shores.
11 I said, ‘This far and no farther will you come.
Here your proud waves must stop!’

12 “Have you ever commanded the morning to appear
and caused the dawn to rise in the east?
13 Have you made daylight spread to the ends of the earth,
to bring an end to the night’s wickedness?
14 As the light approaches,
the earth takes shape like clay pressed beneath a seal;
it is robed in brilliant colors.[b]
15 The light disturbs the wicked
and stops the arm that is raised in violence.

16 “Have you explored the springs from which the seas come?
Have you explored their depths?
17 Do you know where the gates of death are located?
Have you seen the gates of utter gloom?
18 Do you realize the extent of the earth?
Tell me about it if you know!

19 “Where does light come from,
and where does darkness go?
20 Can you take each to its home?
Do you know how to get there?
21 But of course you know all this!
For you were born before it was all created,
and you are so very experienced!

22 “Have you visited the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of hail?
23 (I have reserved them as weapons for the time of trouble,
for the day of battle and war.)
24 Where is the path to the source of light?
Where is the home of the east wind?

25 “Who created a channel for the torrents of rain?
Who laid out the path for the lightning?
26 Who makes the rain fall on barren land,
in a desert where no one lives?
27 Who sends rain to satisfy the parched ground
and make the tender grass spring up?

28 “Does the rain have a father?
Who gives birth to the dew?
29 Who is the mother of the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens?
30 For the water turns to ice as hard as rock,
and the surface of the water freezes.

31 “Can you direct the movement of the stars—
binding the cluster of the Pleiades
or loosening the cords of Orion?
32 Can you direct the sequence of the seasons
or guide the Bear with her cubs across the heavens?
33 Do you know the laws of the universe?
Can you use them to regulate the earth?

34 “Can you shout to the clouds
and make it rain?
35 Can you make lightning appear
and cause it to strike as you direct?
36 Who gives intuition to the heart
and instinct to the mind?
37 Who is wise enough to count all the clouds?
Who can tilt the water jars of heaven
38 when the parched ground is dry
and the soil has hardened into clods?

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Manape, the reason people sacrificed animals was to receive forgiveness of their sins. When Jesus came, people no longer had to sacrifice animals, but received forgiveness through Him. That is what I meant by being under grace instead of under the law. We are still supposed to try our best to do what is right.

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My father's influence was not limited to the time when he was raising us. He has continued to be a source of stress because he has never changed. He's 73, so I'm not holding my breath that he will get better. It's never really in the past because it's part of our present.

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http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%203&version=NKJV

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206&version=NIV

Some people might think that I work too hard, but I really don't work any harder than I have to. If you saw how messy my house is right now you would probably say I don't work hard enough. LOL But if I didn't work as much as I do the bills wouldn't get paid and the housework wouldn't get done. Working in the garden, cleaning house, chopping firewood, etc. give you lots of time for talking with God and for appreciating the wonder and the complexity of His creation.

When I say I go to church on Sundays, I mean I go to a building where other believers gather to fellowship and worship God. Kind of like these verses in Hebrews 10 tell you to do:

24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another..

But you can ask anyone who knows me and they will tell you that I am no different on Sundays than I am any other day of the week. I am resting in the Spirit of the Father's love at all times. But, sometimes I have to work while I am resting in His love!

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Do you think Christians should go around doing wrong, hurting other people, breaking laws, etc. just because they are forgiven? These passages might help clarify my position:

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Do you think Christians should go around doing wrong, hurting other people, breaking laws, etc. just because they are forgiven? These passages might help clarify my position:

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Of course not, Meg! Why do ask?" ......

Setting in on our pews, looking at the backs of faceless people is not my idea of fellowship...I am active in a local assembly, but I had much rather gather with people at work and people I meet on the journey. I agree with my 10 year old grand daughter when she said, "I love Jesus and God, but church is a bore."

Don't get me wrong. I've found some pockets of assemblies where Christ is relevant, but most appear to be legalistic, teach grace but have a thousand rules and they only want you to come to give money to finance their multi-million dollar buildings rather than feeding the poor people down the street.

Most of the time I had rather hang out with atheist, humanist and sinners who challenge me to new heights rather than church flakes who bore me to tears.

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Wildflower said:

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My father's influence was not limited to the time when he was raising us. He has continued to be a source of stress because he has never changed. He's 73, so I'm not holding my breath that he will get better. It's never really in the past because it's part of our present.

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WF: Trying to change others...is that not the problem?

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Churches vary a lot in their teachings on marriage. My issue is that a literal view of the bible provides too much leeway for abusive husbands IF they are in a congregation that leans heavily on the authority of the husband.

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Do you think the authority-driven churches and authority seeking husbands know how Jesus is really like? He commanded us to love our God and our spouse as we love ourselves. Fundamental and evangelical Institutional-Churches (IC's) are built on authority, fear, control and power.

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Blairsville, Georgia - home in the North GA Mountains

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