It's a safe haven for a vehicle and its contents. It's a place for protection from the elements where you can contemplate the storm or hot, bright, sunlight outside without being directly affected by it at the moment. It's a place that holds tools and other items to work on the car, focus attention on it, make it better, and help make it last longer.

Surprise, surprise - churches do a similar thing! They provide protection from the often commercial, material, sensual, and drama-stricken world outside, a safe haven where we can relax away from that mental storm and focus on God. It's a place that provides the tools of prayer, fellowship, and instruction that lets us work on making ourselves better without the distractions of TV, cell phones, Internet, and the like. It's a place where we can reflect on Jesus' sacrifice for every one of us and marvel at His love for us, His imperfect creatures. To paraphrase on BASF's slogan: churches don't make Christians, they make them better. Godspeed.

Except some people seem to be impervious to the very tools that are supposed to help them, no matter how many hours they sit in the garage.

Isn't that what the saying really means? The saying isn't focused on the church and it's function; it's focused on the person who attends.

In my world-view from the cave, one cannot go to church because we are the church. Granted, I get some strange looks from preachers when they ask me where I go to church? I tell them I don't go anywhere--the Church is where we are having this conversation.

I'm not talking about atheist Christians: The acceptance of the teachings of Jesus in the absence of a belief in God. What I'm talking about is the real deal, being born again--again. I'm talking about living like a Christian where ever you are. Do I hear a BIG amen from WRJ? Oh, I forgot he is in Europe. Hey, Jenks don't they have the Internet over there? We miss you.

When I was growing up we were Christmas and Easter Christians, except let's not for et that mountain tradition of decorations...for those uneducated in mountain-country Christianity, that's when we go to decorate the graves of departed love ones, hear wind gasping preaching, singing, foot washing, snake handling and eating dinner in the shed. It is a South thing or "thang", too, but they call it dinner on the grounds. I was just kidding about the snake handling part.

Here is a question for the Bible literalistic Christians? If like my NIV says "the last seven chapters of Mark were not in the oldest manuscripts, how can you say the Bible is 100% inerrant. There are also many other verses that were added and mistakes and minor changes were made. In Mark, the end is handling snakes which was not in the original writings. If those verses were added later, what else was added? I don't think the good news message of the Bible, as we know it, has been changed, but how can you say the Bible is 100% inerrant when scribes later added versus and there are mistakes from so many scribes? What do you mean by inerrant?

Back to cars...is anyone else experiencing a Christian transformation? -- going from being a Christian atheist to a bona_fide real deal Christian? If so, how's your walk with Jesus and how is it working on being real?

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Manape,
Just who is this other being that expressed to even knowing that WRJ
was in Germany?You are probably speaking for your self, John.Are you
being facetious or funny?

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"When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty." -Thomas Jefferson

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Atheists
are nearly all realists and as such are opposed to mythological
characters.I don't think there are many of us that hate christians.What
we have in common is that we can't understand why a sensible person can
believe in a god,tooth fairy or the likes.What annoys me about
christians is that they still believe that prayers are answered and
their perception that Atheists are evil.The most honest and
compassionate people I have met are non-belivers.WRJ

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First, let's take your belief that Christians believe Atheist are evil. Fundamentalist-Christians believe atheist are evil. I don't believe Atheist are evil. I have Atheist friends who help the poor and unfortunate people of our community which is the teachings of the Christian God we followers of Christ call Jesus. Just as you have compared Christians to Humanist, the same comparison works for Christians. There are different degrees of Christians. Also, honest and compassionate people can be non-believers or Christians. I agree with you on this and I have left many Churches in Union County, including First Baptist Church. What you have on one end of the spectrum are the elitist-Christians like FB and the opposite end of the spectrum are country churches. Currently, I hang out with a faith-based community who are compassionate and honest people. When I am in community with these people of God, I feel at peace.

True Christians love Atheist and all people.

{quote]I am a
little comfused just what the Christians claim to be god.Was it the
evil one that killed most of the people on this earth or the boy
Jesus.If you didn't catch the meaning of my statement that my wife is a
good former Lutheran,was because you claimed that your wife was a good
or fine christian wife or woman.[/quote]

And my wife and I are former Baptist, but now we hang out with non-denominational faith communities.

As I have said before, I don't worship a God who kills people. Your concept of this god is foreign to me. I have read in the books of the OT, many times about the wars the Jewish people had and God showed favor on his chosen people of the Jewish religion. Or if other people picked on them, God would take care of the enemy of his chosen people. Also, God hates evil and evil people were destroyed. Perhaps you are confusing one of the 10 Commandments that says thou shalt not murder. God doesn't murder if that is your point, but he will solve the problem if his chosen people are murdered by other people. Can you give me an example when the god you talk about murdered people. All you have given so far is statistics. In grad school, my statistics professor said, "there are lies, damn lies, and then there statistics. Show me a statistic in the New Testament where Emmanuel murdered people. All I see are his teachings of compassion and love for humanity. God martyred Himself for his humanity. Some how through the ultimate sacrifice, we don't have to kill innocent lambs anymore like the Jews did in the OT. Don't ask me how that makes all acceptable in his site. All I know is I am now a member of the Kingdom of God. In my simple religion, that is enough for me.

I worship Emmanuel, which is another name for "boy Jesus", as you call him.

I can't really define god for you, there as many definitions as there are people on the earth. My simple definition is one of the names for Jesus in the English translations.

Easy English definition for 'Emmanuel':

Emmanuel ~ (A) ~ a name for Jesus which means 'God with us'.

On prayer, the answer can be yes or no. The god most christians have is a cosmic soda machine. Prayer gives me peace. For example, there is a situation at work that I am stressed about. In my meditation or prayer, I asked the Spirit (still another name for God) to give me peace and I have peace about the situation and stress of work-life. To most Christians, prayer is telling their god how to do his job. To me meditation gives me great peace. It also gives me peace to study Psalms or songs in the OT. One of the scripture versus I like is Psalm 16:5, "You Lord are all I have and Your give me all I need. My future is in Your Hands." I have many unanswered prayers, so, my guess is I am not a Christian--I'm a Follower of Jesus. If you want to lump me into some category for discussion purposes, that's fine. In the original meaning christian was used as a derogatory term. It meant little Christ. Christians were also called Atheist 2000 years ago because they would worship the Roman gods, primarily the Cesar who was in charge at the time. Who knows? Perhaps you would have been called an Atheist because you wouldn't worship George Bush. LOL!

As for "we missed you", I can't speak for the rest of the people of the forum--but I miss you when you don't post because you because of the point of view you add to these forums. I like your humor.

Just for the record, I have never believed in the tooth fairy or Santa Clause gods. Gotta head for the bed again.

Peace to all.

"When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty." -Thomas Jefferson

WRJ, real deal Christians witness by their lives and actions, not belonging to some institutional church where they are more interested in being seen in a church. F.B. probably has a lot of good Christians...my family and I just don't feel the presence of the Spirit there.

I need to head for the bed or I will not be fit for the day job. Peace to all.

In a controlling church...unnoticed, the dechurched rarely get to ask the essential question, "How can I restore damaged faith?" Instead, they are left to wonder, "How can I get as far away as possible from this wounding experience?" Before that happens, the church (some church) needs to provide vehicles for safe, healing relationships that support the dechurched as they struggle to dismantle their damaged faith and rebuild it from the ground up.

There are no easy answers. This reconstruction process admits of no quick fixes or easy paths. It calls for a gradual restoration that encompasses four areas: engaging in personal healing and recovery; identifying systemic issues within one's situation; decontaminating the Bible; and reworking one's theological understandings.

The biggest challenge for the dechurched person seeking a restored faith is to decontaminate the Bible. For those who have been wounded in God's name—by a church, by Christians—the Bible is often viewed as toxic: a frightening collection of judgements, demands, and damnation. Some people have the concept that, "My God is really like the Great Policeman in the Sky." Often the dechurched have experienced the Bible as a policing manual, not a life-giving message of hope.

For these reasons, many individuals reject the Bible totally or remain forever locked in combat with it. This need not be so. But for a person's relationship to Scripture to change, toxic uses of the Bible must be replaced by new understandings. Damaging messages must be re-examined. Christ's word of release to the captives must be reclaimed.

The church's complicity with injustice must be acknowledged. Facing such issues head-on allows the dechurched person to identify prior distortions of Scripture and reclaim the text within a broader biblical context of liberating Good News.

This process of reclaiming the Scriptures is related to the fourth aspect of restoring one's faith: reworking one's theological understandings. A battered woman who justifies her abuser's behaviour on the basis of "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands" (Eph 5:22, KJV), needs to develop a deeper understanding of gender and spirituality in the Bible. She also needs to re-examine her understanding of obedience, servant hood, and the nature of sin, and to hear the prophetic denunciations of injustice and violence that pulsate through the text. With these, she can reclaim her identity as a precious child of God. An abusive theology must be dismantled if it is to be replaced by a liberating theology rooted in the message of Scripture.

Has anyone here suffered at the hand of the church (Christians)? I know some have, but I would like to hear from others. I want to know why people are leaving the church, any church. How are you dealing with it? Furthermore, are there any other places of worship dealing with the problem? Do you know the problem may be us Christians who allow dominating pastors to rule like Hitler and Christians to abuse and kill the wounded in the name of Christ? No names, please...I'm not here to run down Churches. How are you dealing with it (church abuse)? Or you may be happy in a healthy-normal Church, let us hear from you, too.

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The church's complicity with injustice must be acknowledged.

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Perhaps, I'm missing something...Your very screen name illustrates the path of least resistance. Wildflowers just happen (THE LAW OF LEAST RESISTANCE). Most of the time, they are not planted. Christ illustrated this by telling us to look at the wild flowers in the valley and the birds of the air. They don't labour like humans do, but they are clothed and survived for millions of years. Let me explain my simple religion.

Wildflower, if the Church is us, the ekklesia, Greek for the called out (Those who claim to be Christians), then the battle is not an uphill battle or swim up stream with organized religion. The adversary is within us, our minds. The battle is within each of us and if we want to change the world, the change must begin within each of us as spiritual beings. We must stop resisting.

If we are the Church instead of and object we go to, the change, repentance or transformation of the mind begins with one person at a time. Traditional Christianity calls this being born again. I call it reconciliation to God. We illustrate this in Spiritual Baptism, being raised to a new life and death to the old life of not believing in God who martyred himself for his humanity or his death on the cross. The kicker is believing he rose from death. All I know is, as Christians that steamed from the Jewish religion, we don't have to sacrifice lambs any more because the ultimate sacrifice was made from the perfect Lamb of God.

It would be stupid to fight with an external force I cannot change...my fight is not with the ORGANIZED CHURCH or the god WRJ describes as Satan being God's buddy. The only person I have the power to change is me and I struggle with the old man, daily.

I'm more spiritual than religious. I'll admit I sometimes I get lost and take the wrong path on my journey, but I can always come back to the path I have chosen. Many are on the same path and it is up to me to find the Christian Community I am comfortable with, real and non-judgemental. For a while it was just me and my wife. After eight years of searching in religious but lost Christianity in the Mountains, we have finally found that community. These people are not perfect, but we feel the Spirit of God among uw when we come together with Him in our mists.

In my simple religion, I follow 7 spiritual laws. You won't find them in 21st Century Christianity, but I see the teachings of Christ in each of 7 Spiritual Laws in the Bible as we know it. Peace, happiness and even wealth is a process or a journey...not a destination. My favourite Law is the law of least resistance, the law of wild flowers.

It doesn't matter if one is atheist, agnostic or a follower of Christ, the Seven Laws of Spiritual Success can be lived one day at a time for all those who seek spirituality. I'm not saying it is a substitute for believing in God, but is the beginning of the journey. Here are the spiritual laws, as follows.

SUNDAY The Law of Pure Potentiality
Take time to be silent, to just BE. Meditate for 30 minutes twice a day. Silently witness the intelligence within every living thing. Practice non-judgement.

MONDAY The Law of Giving
Today, bring whoever you encounter a gift: a compliment or flower [THAT'S U, WF]. Gratefully receive gifts. Keep wealth circulating by giving and receiving care, affection, appreciation and love.

TUESDAY The Law of Cause and Effect
Every action generates a force of energy that returns to us in like kind. Choosing actions that bring happiness and success to others ensures the flow of happiness and success to you.

WEDNESDAY
The Law of Least Effort
Accept people, situations, and events as they occur. Take responsibility for your situation and for all events seen as problems. Relinquish the need to defend your point of view.

THURSDAY
The Law of Intention and Desire
Inherent in every intention and desire is the mechanics for its fulfilment. Make a list of desires. Trust that when things don’t seem to go your way, there is a reason.

FRIDAY The Law of Detachment
Allow yourself and others the freedom to be who they are. Do not force solutions—allow solutions to spontaneously emerge. Uncertainty is essential, and your path to freedom.

SATURDAY The Law of Serving
Seek your higher Self. Discover your unique talents. Ask yourself how you are best suited to serve humanity. Using your unique talents and serving others brings unlimited bliss and abundance.

I'm not preaching that no one needs God or we are gods. It is our freedom of choice not to believe in God or to have doubts about the existence of God. I don't condemn others because that is not what Christ taught us to do. He taught us to witness by the lives we live as Christians, not by meaningless slogans and bumper sticker Christianity. That's just superficial Christianity.

Peace to all manapes.

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So, Flower, how is changing one's self an uphill swim? We all have the power to change, whether we realize it or not.

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Edited by - Wildflower on 07/21/2010 11:39:15 PM

I know because I was one of these millions who dropped out of active
involvement in organized religion. But unlike the majority of the other
33,999,999 dropouts, I was a religious leader when I did.

I grew up in the church, the son of a Southern Baptist minister.
When I graduated from college, I went to seminary, and after several
years of study, I began my career as a professional minister. It wasn't
long, however, before I discovered that the church was more lost than
the world it was trying to save.

Go into many churches today, and instead of finding an institution
interested in saving the world, what you may find is an institution
vastly more interested in saving itself. For example, people go to
church to find God. Instead of finding God, however, followers are
often saddled with a catalogue of "do's" and "don'ts" as onerous as the
US tax code. They are told what to think, how to believe, as well as
how they're supposed to live.

What is it we're always told? "Never discuss religion or politics." Nothing could be further from the truth and, is more than likely the reason this country is in it's present condition.

The powers that be don't want an educated, informed citizenry. Oh no! That would go against their agenda. Maintain the status quo. Don't rock the boat and everything will be okay. No need to think for yourself. We, the rulers, know what's best for you.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzz

"Educate and inform the whole mass of people. They are the only sure reliance of the preservation of our freedom."
-- Thomas Jefferson

The Outward Church are individuals I come in contact with every day in my business. I come in contact with church flakes who do not have a clue of their complcity with injustice. Perhaps our conversations will spark a change.

Since people who profess to be Christians are the Church. If we are to reform the Chruch, the second reformation begins whith those who profess to be Christians. So, each of us must acknowledge our own complicity with injustice. You can think of it as a "Being the Change Movement." You may think it is idealistic and simplistic, but change begins with individuals and small groups.

The Be the Change Movement was inspired by the words and actions of Mohandas (Mahatma) K. Gandhi, who said, “We must be the change we wish to see in the world.” The Be the Change Movement is made up of like-minded individuals linked by a common desire to make a positive change in the world around them.

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Go into many churches today, and instead of finding an institution
interested in saving the world, what you may find is an institution
vastly more interested in saving itself. For example, people go to
church to find God. Instead of finding God, however, followers are
often saddled with a catalogue of "do's" and "don'ts" as onerous as the
US tax code. They are told what to think, how to believe, as well as
how they're supposed to live. 

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"When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty." -Thomas Jefferson

quote:

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The church's complicity with injustice must be acknowledged.

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Good luck with that one, friend. Nothing like a nice swim upstream.

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